MFT swing
 

Do you think that his ideas about a MFT swing make sense from a TGM perspective?

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyl...ful-swing.html

Jeff.

JEFF,

I've been reading your stuff for a couple of years, this is the first peice of real meat I've read, It harkens HK's words. 4-1-2-3. You might click on the author to read all articles.

HB

So this MFH theory resonates with you?

He states-: "The second firing needs to be really explosive and it needs to drive you through the last 90 degrees of hip rotation till the end of the swing.

In a biomechanical graph, this means that Tiger has two velocity peaks for his hips and shoulders. His second hip velocity peak occurs just prior to impact and this "slingshots" his shoulders (2nd firing) into the ball with maximum force. Ben Hogan did this as well.

But Jamie's swing is even more violent and powerful. His hips and shoulders reach their 2nd velocity peaks right at impact. All of this adds to his speed AND effective mass at impact. The added mass of his body firing at high speed right at impact will add to his smash factor and higher ball speeds at impact. This is sledgehammering at its finest."

Does this theory seem sensible? Does the idea of firing the hips/shoulders again before impact increase ball flight distance? How? Could you provide the causal link explanation that I obviously cannot grasp. How does the added mass of the body increase smash factor and produce higher ball speeds?

He stated-: "If your hips and shoulders slow down too early in the downswing (because no one told it to fire again), then naturally conservation of angular momentum takes over and all speed and energy goes to the hands. Voila! We are casting! At the very least, without one's shoulders firing at high speeds at impact, we get a hand flip. It just can't be helped. We flip because we don't fire our hips and shoulders again."

So, do you believe that a failure to fire the hips and shoulders again leads to hand flipping?

Jeff.

Hips going forward . . . vertical forces via the ground . . . swing the arms FAST . . . This dude has something . . . strong on dynamics but weak on geometry . . . the articles on tiger's transition and the arms swing articles are really good.

Life Of the Party
 

Wow, am I ever new to this party! I've been sensing it, but I had no idea.

At the same time, it looks like we're on track pretty quick with this dedicated, quarantined forum.

:salut:

In simplest terms, hit it as low as you can in your downswing and as high as you can in your follow though.

Lead, Lag and Flail
 

Now that sounds interesting!

:golf:

I try to keep current. I had Jeff on another forum before. Much disagreement, but an appreciation of the desire for knowledge. Always sorting, with a TGM filter.

HB

Thanks for commenting. Unfortunately, I haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about - I usually need detailed explanations to understand a person's alternative perspective.

Jeff.

I see it in Tiger's iron swings (with a bit of bobbing). The sound of it is something to behold. In slo-mo, you would swear he was hitting the stinger, but in real life, it is the highest, purest shot ever hit. Not that he swings this way all the time.

Telegraphic Post
 

Read the title of my post #7. That's my immediate take. My guess is that it's not far off.

8-)

I'll try to show my perspective over the next few days. I don't think this guy has all the pieces, but he is on to something. I think bucket is sniffing as well.

As I said, always searching though a TGM filter. The geometry never changes. The ball responds to the geometry. Maybe we can stretch the physics.

Bucket
 

Lynn,

You may know that Bucket and I converse frequently. The more we go round, the more we both think that Homer has it, but we are short in understanding his genius.

Homer might not have understood the need for a 200 yard 6 iron hit to the moon, but I think he would have understood how to do it.

Let me know when
 

HB,

Let me know when that draft of your first book is.
I would love to check it out.

UPP in Ohio

CalSr
 

Creating power gets attention! Could Ben Doyle's reference to snapping the hips have a relationship to this MFT swing?

CalSr

Ben's Basic Lesson
 

Exactly what I was thinking big daddy.

When you take a lesson with Ben make sure your belt loops are strong, otherwise they will get ripped off as he teaches you to "hit the ball with your pivot".
We have some video of Ben doing exactly that with a student.

Bagger - what do you mean when you say "learn to hit the ball with your pivot"?

Consider a pivot-driven swing in a swinger - he uses the pivot to load and release PA#4.

Here is an example of the release of PA#4 - by Ben Hogan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loJJ0qmDQxY

When PA#4 is released in the mid-downswing, the left arm moves towards impact, and then PA#2 and then PA#3 are released passively.

Is that what you mean by "learn to hit the ball with your pivot"?

Jeff.

Proper Attribution
 

More precisely . . .

What does Ben Doyle mean when he says "learn to hit the ball with your pivot?"

That distinction made, I think you've got the idea.

Jeff why do you consider Hogan has released all of #4 at this point? Why do you consider Hogan passively releases $3 when he has so much of it to roll out. Ever consider Hogan blew some #3 off earlier?
You insist he is a swinger and does it by the yellow book ( so to speak) but how does this match up to a cp release with an angle hinge orientation ?

Pistol - I was taught here at this website that PA#4 is completely released when the left arm-chest wall angle is 90 degrees. Hogan achieves that 90 degree release angle by impact, so I presume that he has completely released PA#4 by impact.

It is my personal opinion that Hogan is a swinger - based on watching his swing video many times. If I am correct, then PA#3 release is essentially a passive phenomenon and not due to the active release of PA#1 that thrusts the straightening right arm through impact. If you have reason to believe otherwise, please provide the "evidence" (and the statement "I wish I had three right hands cannot be considered "evidence").

I do not believe that Hogan always used angled hinging, He sometimes employed horizontal hinging. However, I think that he preferred angled hinging because he preferred a power fade shot, rather than a low penetrating draw. I think that he was skilled enough to use either angled or horizontal hinging at will.

Jeff.

Jeff you put up a youtube clip showing Hogan not even close to impact showing release of #4 and now you say he releases all of it by impact...im confused ..seems like you are contradicting yourself now.
Why would hh produce a low draw? and angle h a low fade?
Can you produce footage of Hogan post 1950's using a hh?
Homer says to use elbow plane it requires an earlier release of #3..what would #1 have to do with this and 3 right hands?
What about what Venturi said of Hogan and what he said in the locker room that its elbow to elbow..inferring he paints a dot on the inside of the arm/elbow joint and points it to the sky.
Consider the downswing is over in aprox .3 sec and it takes the brain .2 sec approx to send the signal to the arms/hands would that not make some sense that Hogan actively supinated his left elbow during the downswing which would in turn initiate the #3 release?

Pistol - that video by Golfbulldog shows that Hogan starts to release at that time point, but release is not completed until impact. What's the contradiction?

HH produces a low draw because the clubface is constantly closing during impact, while AH produces a half-layback situation (halfway between closing and layback) and that produces a a small degree of slice spin due to a small degree of compression leakage.

Where does HK state that using the elbow plane requires an earlier release of PA#3, and what is meant by an earlier release?

In this swing video of Tiger Woods, he is on the elbow plane in the late downswing and he has no problem with a late release of PA#3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meVTld5GvbM

You wrote-: "What about what Venturi said of Hogan and what he said in the locker room that its elbow to elbow..inferring he paints a dot on the inside of the arm/elbow joint and points it to the sky."

I don't know what you are actually describing and I also don't know what point you are trying to make.

You wrote-: "Consider the downswing is over in aprox .3 sec and it takes the brain .2 sec approx to send the signal to the arms/hands would that not make some sense that Hogan actively supinated his left elbow during the downswing which would in turn initiate the #3 release?"

I presume that you made a typo when you stated "elbow" rather than forearm. One cannot supinate the elbow. However, one can perform a supinatory left forearm action. Why should Hogan's left forearm supinatory action need to be active? What's wrong with passive - activated by an assertive torso rotation through the impact zone?

Jeff.

Don't take my edited video out of context!
 

Everybody needs to have their version of 2-R - a get out clause for using images out of desired context!:laughing9

The clip I posted, which Jeff referenced, was meant to show the initial movement of left arm off the chest, with left upper arm not being help tightly to the chest wall.

You can not tell how much acc.4 has released at impact (last frame) because of the video angle.

You can make no conclusion re. wrist motion/acc 3 release from this clip.

posted some answers above Jeff

Pistol

I am willing to participate in a debate where I can get to interchange opinions with a person who describes his opinions in a constructively communicative manner that is designed to enhance understanding of a person's opinions, rather to exhibit "one-upmanship".

A statement like -: "Seems pretty obvious what Venturi said ..check out the ed sullivan show" is not designed to constructively communicate. Nor are these statements-: "somewhere ..surely you got all copies ..read." and "Can't be bothered watching the video Jeff cause no comparison to Hogan and he had way less #3 to release and more cf position usually."

If you are really interested in educating me re: your viewpoint, then you need to provide expansive commentary that makes your viewpoint(s) understandable.

Jeff.

thread jack
 

The link Jeff posted has some interesting stuff to explore. This thread has deteriorated into a run of the mill........

I'd just like to look at the pictures of Tiger and Jamie and try to understand the dynamic that allows them to propel the ball like the giants Hogan talked about in 5 lessons. But these guys don't look like giants....just strong and fast.

It looks to me like Jamie will only get longer as his technique improves.

Anyone see any serious karate chopping down the plane?

Anyone see some hula hula pivot?

Anyone see any maximizing the radius?

What thread jack?? from me ?? should i just read instead ??

Agreed . . . .but before we proceed down that line of thought . . . I think we should state the basic premise of this dude's arguement.

1. He doesn't think "rotary" stuff is "the way it works" at least to hit the ball far.

2. He is advising maximizing vertical forces into the ground vs. just turning or just sliding . . . so slide then push up and turn dynamically.

3. He wants you to swing the arms FAST.

So the question is . . . . is this contradictory to Mr. K . . . I say NO . . . I think it's right in line. There certainly are some things to flesh out.

1. 4-1-2-3 . . .what does that mean in relation to "fast arms" . . . considering Homer said the arms are the power lane?

2. How do you swing your arms fast? Do you just plane turn your pivot into them massive rotor style? Is there arm participation?

3. I think releasing 4-1-2-3 at the proper rate with the pivot has huge on plane functions . ..

12PB

I don't that you are representing his "core" MFT argument.

His core argument is based on multiple firings - the idea that one should reactivate the hip turn again in the late downswing.

This is what he wrote-: "In a biomechanical graph, this means that Tiger has two velocity peaks for his hips and shoulders. His second hip velocity peak occurs just prior to impact and this "slingshots" his shoulders (2nd firing) into the ball with maximum force."

He is arguing that a second hip velocity peak will "slingshot" the shoulders into the ball with maximum force. Do you buy that argument? Do you believe that slinging your right shoulder into the ball with maximum force (as a second firing) will increase ball speed? If you do, please explain the mechanics.

Jeff.

There is a combination of rotary and vertical movent of the shoulders in the DS, Joe Norwood talked alot about the shoulders acting as pistons driving the arms through impact...ie. vertical not rotary...Norwood may have helped Hogan in the 40s.

If accumulator 4 has started to release...ie left arm is moving down and off the chest... can pivot motion do anything more than divert the path of the arm after release has started? ie. the chest rotation can't push the arm once the arm has left the chest....but the shoulders can move and alter the left arm in a different manner...?maybe redirecting the power package or actually adding force??

Maybe MFT swing starts with rotation and then fires later with vertical...but it is all blended through a general application of force....force is the ultimate result however it is achieved...aligned force.

Pistol,

I don't think you jacked the thread. I think you responded the jack. Definitely post.

In the edit I did on this youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oh184bHGkpM

Whilst accumulator 4 has not started to release (ie. the initial move before frame by frame segemnt) the left shoulder moves left without much vertical motion...John Schlee (and hence Tom Bertrand) always go on about moving "level left".

Then there is much more vertical motion in the next sgement (frame by frame)...

Obviously it is all blended....but the pivot is much more complicated than just pure rotation. I'm sure that Jeff could do a great job with his Spline tool on the motion of the left shoulder and left knee....maybe "j" shaped...?horizontal during lateral weight shift and preliminary rotation (about 45 degrees) then much more towards vertical when the axis tilt kicks in ???

Maybe?

GBD

You wrote-: ".but the shoulders can move and alter the left arm in a different manner...? maybe redirecting the power package or actually adding force??"

Let's presume that the right shoulder can add thrust force (push-pressure or added weight) to the right forearm/wrist/hand in the late downswing and at impact. Would it make the ball travel faster?

Not according to this collision review paper.

http://nmgolfscience.tripod.com/collisions.htm

Jeff.

I am not saying that the right shoulder adds force through impact resistance...just by increasing arm trhust PRIOR to impact...

If the left arm is blasted off the chest by rotation of pivot...does the left arm continue to accelerate in a pure swing...??

If the left arm is blasted off then is given an extra force prior to impact...will that increase hand speed - and perhaps more imortantly alter hands path - prior to impact resulting in more clubhead speed at impact?

Get a copy of "golf-o-metrics" - it should be part of your journey. If you want to document the perfect swing as well as all swings - as Mac O'Grady wishes to do, by all accounts - then you should at least follow his footsteps to see where he is right or wrong. The book is written by his students...it is very hard to read...makes TGM seem like kindergarten stuff:laughing9

Mac liked Norwood alot (gave him a very complimentary review on his video)...but he apparently gave Joe Norwood a copy of TGM... Mac likes both apparently...

too many "apparently" - I am such a gossip!:laughing9

GBD

Here is a graph showing the arm speed of an excellent golfer.



Note that arm speed increases after the shoulders decelerate. However, arm speed decreases prior to impact. Note that clubhead speed increases all the way to impact (slope of the clubshaft curve represents its rate of acceleration).

Let's presume that one could prevent the left arm from slowing down in this kinetic sequence by some supplementary biomechanical maneuver (eg. increasing right shoulder thrust). Would that be advantageous and increase clubhead speed at impact?

I think not - because the arms have to slow down to allow for the complete release of PA#2 and PA#3 in a swinger's action. Accelerating the left arm in the late downswing will interfere with the club's release phenomenon, and actually decrease clubhead speed into impact.

I think that the only practical method of increasing clubhead speed is to increase the speed of evolution of the entire kinetic sequence. In other words, Tiger Woods performs this entire kinetic sequence much faster than the average amateur golfer, who is skilled enough to get the kinetic sequence correct.

Where can I get a copy of golf-o-metrics?

Jeff.

Not sure about all the bursting stuff . . . . I just think the segments in the pivot go from flexion to extension . . . . it's like full lever extension of the pivot . . . extending the segments from the feet all the way through . . . extending the entire radius. Tiger blew out his knee from over-rotation not extension. Sure the shoulders rotate but I think the speed is from the fast arms and the extension . . . .

A lot of this has to do with the sequence with which this happens . . . You can get a transition like Hogan/Sergio but you can't just let the pivot pin the left arm and have it drag it over or under plane . . . .it has to go FAST to stay on the plane. The hands have to go down plane FAST. #4 releasing . ..

Cool . . . you can really see #4 releasing there.

look similar . . check the extension . . .

This is what this cat had to say about hitting . ..

Two Key Elements in an Elite-Level Swing

What do they really need to do? What do elite level hitters do that young hitters need to learn to do? Simply stated, elite level hitters have learned to (1) generate tremendous explosive power from the middle of their body and (2) use their upper body in the most efficient way to transfer that explosive power to their bat head. In other words, they swing like elite athletes.

Can this swing be taught? More importantly, can your young hitter learn to swing a bat like an elite athlete?

In our experience, the answer is almost certainly no … if they continue doing what 95% of the hitting world – both baseball and softball – from youth league coaches to college and professional coaches - is telling them to do. However … with dedication on the part of both the hitter and his parent or coach and an understanding of the principles and movements taught by Steve Englishbey, we have seen mediocre hitters develop swings that are pretty damn good. And we are pretty damn critical. The success stories are inside this website. We invite you to join our forum, spend some time browsing the website, and take an informed look at whether EnglishbeyHitting swing instruction might be the answer to your young athlete’s hitting aspirations.

http://www.englishbeyhitting.com/index2.html#2keys

I agree with most of your stuff about kinetic sequence. But can I just check that I see the same things as you in that chart?

When you say the shoulders decelerate - do you mean time point green diamond?

I am not convinced that the arm rotational velocity increase much between green diamond and blue circle (time point for max arm speed)... the arm speed trace seems to plateau at about the same time as the shoulder rotation...approximately.

The thorax does increase in rotational velocity after peak pelvis rotational speed - That I do accept.

What interest me is the relative lack of vertical motion in the early DS pivot (top of BS -ie. pre red square - to green diamond) relative to the period in later DS ( green diamond to impact).

This is where the piston shoulder bit comes in I think... as i said earlier - it may be hand path that is effected most...your graph shows rotational speed...the shoulders move less in rotation in some DS segemnts and more in vertical direction it seems ...?

For Joe Norwood material i will PM (it is commercial so can not post on LBG)

not sure this would translate to golf but pretty interesting . . . maybe swing a dowel fast . . .

http://www.bigcat844.com/increasing_bat_speed.html